For me, probably like a lot of you, time matters. I don’t want to just do everything and maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t, so I’m never an early adopter. I’m always somebody who’s a skeptic who’s like, “Okay, let them try it first. I want to try it later once they’ve proven it actually works.”
Everyone I know that’s bought one of these machines absolutely raves about it. For improving heart rate variability, to improving your focus, to improving my perceived recovery times. Meaning, if I train legs today and I do a 30-to-60-minute session after on the NanoVi, my legs training, or my leg soreness will be a fraction of what it otherwise would have been. My energy the rest is massively increased.
NanoVi is something that I have my kids on because it’s literally just water where they change the electrical signature of the chemical structure, but I won’t tell you anymore about that because you have to listen all the way through this podcast as Rowena Gates shares all of this incredible information, all the research, all the data, on why this thing is an incredibly effective recovery modality.
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Have an amazing day guys, I hope you enjoy the podcast with Miss Rowena Gates.
Rowena Gates, welcome back to the show!
00:05:15 Rowena Gates
Thanks, it’s nice to be here.
00:05:17 Ben Pakulski
Yeah, we always seem to be running into each other remotely around the world and now we’re very blessed to have you back on the podcast. So thank you for joining us.
00:05:24 Rowena Gates
Pleasure.
00:05:26 Ben Pakulski
You are the owner and creator of the NanoVi which is one of my favorite technologies that I’ve been telling everyone about for, gosh, it must have been four years now I think I’ve been using your system. You continue to come out with new information, new data on the efficacy and utility of the NanoVi. I’d love to have you just kind of refresh our listener’s minds as to what it is.
00:05:51 Rowena Gates
Sure, sure. First of all, I should say I’m not the actual creator, I’m a partner…
00:05:58 Ben Pakulski
Hans, who was on the show in the past.
00:06:01 Rowena Gates
Yeah, and what’s happened more recently is more studies of the technology itself. The humidified air that comes from the technology verifying that it’s doing what we wanted it to do. That’s really leveraging the water science, which is Gerald Pollack and a bunch of other people. Then the more exciting stuff for me is the experiments done on proteins themselves and on people. I always love to see the data because that’s what everybody wants.
00:06:36 Ben Pakulski
Yeah, let’s dive into that. When you say protein, what are we talking about? I don’t want to assume anyone…or you can continue to talk about the NanoVi first, I just want to make sure we don’t miss over the protein.
00:06:47 Rowena Gates
Well, the protein part is a good place to start actually, because I think it’s very interesting, especially for athletes because every athlete is familiar with proteins, peptides, protein supplements and all of that, knowing that that’s all needed by the body if you’re going to build muscle and endurance and strength and so on.
If we start with the protein that you eat, which can just be your food or something supplemental, we have to get from that protein to the protein inside the cell, which is a very different thing, but it’s made out of the proteins you either eat or some that the body create endogenously. About half of them the body has to make itself and about half of them come from food. If you think of that chain, you start by breaking down the protein you eat into the individual amino acids. That’s why we care so much about what we eat because we want to make sure the right building blocks are there. Then those building blocks make up the proteins in the cells. You then have them configured in about a million different ways that create different proteins. They have to be made correctly, and they have to fold correctly in order to function.
Then if you kind of step back to what the protein does, it’s all your muscle, it’s almost all of your structure, it’s almost everything in the body is built out of proteins, but then they also do all the work. It’s some orchestration of proteins that’s your immune system, your digestive system, or movement itself, anything is actually a protein function.
So, they really are kind of everything and that’s only our focus at Eng3 and the NanoVi device, we only look at protein activities, but they’re very complicated and there are many of them. They’re poorly understood so far. We might be able to name about 30,000 of an estimated million different proteins. So, we can’t even name them, let alone know exactly what they do, how they interact and so on.
For Eng3 our focus is not on the individual protein, but on its environment. Our goal is to improve the environment for the protein, then let it do whatever it’s supposed to do. It knows what to do; the body knows all that part of it, we’re just going to make the environment a little bit better. I know that’s an area of interest for you because of the EZ Water in Dr. Pollack’s work…
00:09:37 Ben Pakulski
Yeah.
00:09:38 Rowena Gates
…where every protein is immersed in water. Most of our body is water and it’s 99% of the molecules in there. Every protein is in water and interacts with the water in order to do its job. Our goal is, well, let’s make that water a little bit better, help them out.
00:09:59 Ben Pakulski
Yeah, so as I said just before we jumped on, I had spent the last couple hours listening to some of Dr Pollack’s stuff and some of your stuff and Hans’ stuff, just to make sure my brain was kind of up to par with the structured water. The first thing that jumped out to me, as you just said, was people are so mechanistically focused on the muscle itself and the protein within a muscle without acknowledging that 99% of the cells as you say – or sorry, of the atoms – are actually water. So, if we if we put a little bit of our focus then on to, as you say, this environment which is comprised of 99% water, I think there’s certainly an opportunity that exists there to improve the proteins that exist within the water and maybe just improve the functioning of the body by paying attention to optimization of that water environment and that’s ultimately what you guys are doing.
00:10:47 Rowena Gates
Right, and to think from your standpoint where you come from, I think we’re going to be in the next few years learning a lot more about how water is essentially structurally leveraged in the system to get movement and to do things.
00:10:48 Ben Pakulski
Yeah.
00:11:05 Rowena Gates
Some of the things the body does are quite amazing that just pure leverage with mechanics doesn’t explain it, but if you almost add hydraulics, it gets pretty interesting. I have the feeling that that’s an area we’re going to see a lot more information on.
00:11:22 Ben Pakulski
Super interesting. I’d love to have you just first of all give our audience a reminder as to what structured water is. I’m sure you way more versed in it than I am. I’d love to have you just give us the simplest example possible.
00:11:36 Rowena Gates
Sure, structured water is a phrase that’s virtually anything where the water molecules are organized in a way that’s more organized than just regular water. There’s lots of ways to do that. What we do is one subsection of structured water. We want a very specific situation and that involves having the water molecules densely packed together and so it’s referred to as ordered water. So, there’s ways to structure and cluster water that aren’t ordered water.
That’s why we kind of have to narrow down into our funnel, which is this particular condition where the water molecules are closely packed together, they’re highly organized, and then that’s what Gerald Pollack refers to as an EZ type of water exclusion zone meaning that they’re so closely packed together that they exclude anything else, and they push it out of that layer of water.
We’re talking about very thin layers of water, like in a cell or around a structure like a protein. It doesn’t exist like that in bulk water, it would be a very thin layer of the glass of water around the structure – the edge of the glass or the surface potentially, but not a whole glass of water.
00:13:04 Ben Pakulski
One of things that Dr Pollack was saying that this does, so the exclusion zone is excluding the protons, putting the negative charge to the edge of the cell as you say, and that he says has tremendous implications on energy production. So, a lot of the energy being produced in the body is coming from infrared, which causes negative charge, and these negative charges are in some way influencing energy production. You know about that?
00:13:29 Rowena Gates
Yes absolutely, and I think it’s a really interesting area and it explains the benefit of things like red light therapies, other related therapies that are kind of complementary, but what’s unique about the way we approach it is to do it from the inside out through inhalation. So, the humidity from our device touches the water surface in the body and then that transfers throughout the body from the inside out. It’s a different process, a different approach, and it complements if you’re coming from the outside in, maybe topically with red light or PEMF or something.
00:14:18 Ben Pakulski
So when you say outside in, we’re looking at the sun, we’re looking at infrared light, we’re looking at saunas, we’re looking at movement. All those known to create structured water inside the body.
00:14:27 Rowena Gates
Yeah.
00:14:27 Ben Pakulski
Inside out being, “I’m going to inhale this and then assume” – and I’d love to have you talk about this –“assume that once it hits my lung cells, one, its going to work on my lung cells, but two, it’s also being dispersed to other parts of the body where necessary.”
00:14:39 Rowena Gates
Yeah, well that was one area where Jerry was really helpful to us and wrote a piece about why the humidity is important for what we’re doing, rather than say, a glass of water, bulk water, but we’re organizing the humidified droplets. The surface of them becomes very ordered, which is what we’re wanting. That’s verified by a lab in Italy that Dr Pollack introduced us to. They’ve done some great work, which is all kind of a little bit boring to me because it’s just proving it, but it’s not humans. Then when you inhale that you’re connecting the water from the droplet to the body and the transfer through the body is not like diffusing a substance that moves out. It’s more like connecting across the water in the body. You know that game where you take a ball, and you drop one end and the other end goes up?
00:15:40 Ben Pakulski
Yep.
00:15:41 Rowena Gates
It’s working like that where you’re just connecting across it, and so it can go throughout the body very rapidly and very readily. Even though you’re inhaling it, it can affect the water in your feet, or in your arms or wherever it is in your body. Think of it more maybe like an electrical shock goes right through the body really fast.
00:16:08 Ben Pakulski
That’s exactly right, and that’s kind of what he explained, is like everyone’s – maybe not everyone – but some people are ignoring this electrical nature of the body, and if we can sometimes, I don’t want to say increase – but maybe increase – the negative charge of the body, it tends to kind of dissipate throughout the entire body, is that accurate?
00:16:27 Rowena Gates
Yeah, and I think the charges to me are bit tricky because I think that part of it depends if it’s always better to have this or that, but definitely just sort of influencing the water so that it takes on the charge that’s needed to support the protein folding and it’s generally that EZ water is negative, but I believe they’ve shown that EZ water can also be at the other extreme.
00:16:59 Ben Pakulski
Oh, really?
00:17:00 Rowena Gates
Yeah, I shouldn’t be the person to talk about that probably.
00:17:06 Ben Pakulski
Can you talk to us about protein folding? You kind of went down that path and I don’t want to assume that the audience knows what that is.
00:17:12 Rowena Gates
Okay, so if we start at the beginning with your DNA. First of all, you only have one reason to have DNA. It’s the blueprint for proteins. We don’t care so much about DNA, but we don’t think about proteins, but we don’t even need the DNA if we’re not trying to work with this process. The DNA is the blueprint, the transcription into the RNA, and then the RNA creates the actual protein to build it. But what’s coming out that end is a string of amino acids and they have to be in the correct order. You have to have the right number of them, and you have the right amino acids. That’s just a big, long thread and for it to function as a protein, it has to fold into a complex 3-dimensional structure and nothing works unless it’s folded. And so that’s the protein folding part, and it’s a huge area of medical research right now, because it’s kind of a Holy Grail. If we can just understand protein folding, then we can interfere with it, we can turn on this tumor suppressing gene and turn off this other one, and so on, and that’s what 90% of our medications do is they interfere with the proteins and make them work better for what the body needs.
So that folding process is absolutely critical. I mentioned there’s a million proteins in the end, but we only have about 20,000 genes, so there’s a lot of different proteins that could be created from one blueprint and that’s where you get into epigenetics. The body is telling on the fly, tweak it out and make it like this, not like that.
So how that gets built and folded is critical for what gets done in the body. That’s where the technology that we have comes in, it creates an environment in the water that lends itself to protein folding. There’s the folding initially, there’s also misfolding if things go wrong. There’s also refolding when proteins are damaged and are constantly damaged by oxidative stress by free radicals, so other proteins are constantly repairing them. Then you want them repaired as quickly as possible, so they go back to work and do their jobs. There’s all these activities that relate to the protein folding aspect of it. That’s the area that we care about the most. They started showing – I think the first article I’ve seen on this is 2009, but it’s possible that it was earlier, where they’re showing that the proteins are using the water to do their folding and that’s what allows them to get folded into the correct shapes.
00:20:24 Ben Pakulski
When you say that you’re just meaning they’re using the water to do folding, they’re doing it in the water or using it to fuel the energy?
00:20:31 Rowena Gates
Both. They’re in the water, but the ordered water that we talked about earlier with the molecules closely packed together, is a state that’s needed because the protein is unorganized. It’s just a chain of amino acids, but the water is highly organized, so it’s the transfer from the water to the protein. Now the protein becomes very organized or structured or folded, and the water loses some of its juice because it’s given up some of that organization and it’s a transfer of entropy. So it’s a type of energy, but it’s not the energy we often think of like mitochondrial energy or heat or something.
It’s this transfer from disorganized to organized for the protein to work the water loses some, becomes more disorganized and therefore needs to essentially get recharged. The body does that all the time naturally, and what we’re doing is just augmenting it. Giving it a little bit more of that ordered structure, that important protein.
00:21:44 Ben Pakulski
If our body produces it and we’re getting it from movement and sunshine, why do we need more? Is it something that’s shown to degrade with age or just because we’re such a sedentary community? What’s the real reason?
00:21:54 Rowena Gates
Both. Absolutely degrades with age. So far that’s oxidative damage that outpaces repair. It’s a downward spiral, in a way, because once the proteins are damaged, the ones that are meant to fix things are damaged, and so then you start going downhill. That’s aging, but we also do a lot of stuff to ourselves that creates more of this oxidative damage and kind of accelerates that process. A lot of people do things that decelerate the process, so…
00:22:28 Ben Pakulski
Have you done any data or are you doing research on how it affects epigenetics? Because I think it would be relatively simple. I actually just spoke with Ryan Smith from Tru Diagnostic, I don’t know if you know Ryan? He mentioned it probably would be relatively simple for you to do an epigenetic test, do 30 days of NanoVi, and then do an epigenetic test again and see what it’s doing to the assimilation and methylation pathways. Have you thought about that?
00:22:49 Rowena Gates
Yeah, we haven’t actually done that, but it would be an interesting area because it’s on a medical claim which is kind of important for us. We don’t study diseases specifically, so things like that, that reflect underlying health are interesting to us. That’s where we’ve done research on DNA, inflammatory responses, oxidative stress, areas that are not themselves a specific disease.
00:23:17 Ben Pakulski
Tell me about those studies. You’ve done research on information, DNA and oxidative stress and what were the outcomes?
00:23:23 Rowena Gates
The interesting thing here is that most studies are done on athletes because athletes…
00:23:29 Ben Pakulski
We’re abusing ourselves?
00:23:31 Rowena Gates
You can do oxidative damage, but it’s not compromising the subject. You know, you don’t want to take a grandmother and stress her, and so on. One that’s particularly interesting is the double-blind placebo-controlled study done at sports medicine in Stanford University. They looked at lactate and what they did was a half NanoVi session before an all-out exercise test. They found that right after there was 17% less blood lactate for the person that had been pretreated with an active device versus a placebo device. That was a crossover study, so they’re doing the same athlete, two different times, several weeks apart is the nature of the study. So that was one of the most profound results because for athletes, even 5% reduction in lactate is a big deal.
00:24:37 Ben Pakulski
Yeah.
00:24:41 Rowena Gates
Then another side of that was these inflammatory markers. What they’re doing is looking at the immune response because you know that if you overexert, you’re really challenging the immune system and you need it to step up and get to work really fast to repair. What they look at are white blood cells that are indications of inflammation. Well, these are acute inflammation, inflammatory markers that show your immune system is doing its job. That’s different from chronic inflammation, which none of us want. You want the acute inflammation and those results depending on the marker ranged from 10% to 17% improvement over the placebo device. Those are remarkable results when they have implications for your resilience and your immune system.
00:25:40 Ben Pakulski
So when I first had you on the podcast, I became interested because of my knowledge of Gerald Pollack. l and I was like, gosh, structured water seems like it’s the panacea. If you want to optimize health and performance, this is something you need to put in. I have a unit now and I use it often. I think I told you this when we last spoke on the phone, the difference that I see in recovery post-workout. I usually do it post-workout, I’ve never tried it pre-workout and I have a reason, but it’s exceptional. Its ability to mitigate soreness, either immediately after a session or the next day, is tremendous, and I noticed I don’t get as tired after workouts. So, if I do a crazy killer leg session and I do 30 minutes of the NanoVi, I don’t feel nearly as mentally drained. Can you walk me through why you think that might be?
00:26:23 Rowena Gates
Well, that’s because your body is repairing faster. It’s so important the way, athletes like you work out, you’re damaging muscle fibers that need to be repaired, and the faster you can repair them, the better. If you don’t repair them fast enough, you end up with these unfolded proteins which then your body has to go into this longer process to produce more chaperone proteins, get more things fixed. It takes a much longer period of time and that can be days. That’s where people will have these long-term recoveries. So, if you can keep it up on the fly, then you’re just going to have a much better outcome.
00:27:11 Ben Pakulski
So simply by giving my body more structured water, it’s giving it the environment to allow those proteins to recuperate faster?
00:27:19 Rowena Gates
Yes. See, the proteins might be building more fibers because you’re like, man, there’s a demand here. They might be amping up the mitochondria because you’re exerting and need more energy. But they might also be training out the muscle fiber and repurposing them basically to replace them because they’re damaged and you want all that to happen as fast as possible. I have to say you are a trained athlete, so you notice it. Any trained athlete can notice this. But when people are less tuned in it can be less apparent, and although it may be less apparent, it’s no less beneficial. We really want to be doing the repair.
00:28:06 Ben Pakulski
Sure, yeah, I notice everything. Obviously, I’m intentionally trying to push my body hard so I’m looking for those little 1% changes. This was massive and I did tell you also it’s worth mentioning that I had a client who was on Adderall, prescribed. He said he was able to stop his Adderall and I was like, “Why do you think that is?” And he was like, “Maybe it’s the brain inflammation?” I don’t know, so he was able to stay focused and his energy was incredible. Again, this is my subjective of the observation I was like, I don’t understand why, so I thought I would ask you.
00:28:34 Rowena Gates
Well, the brain function is similar and just as interesting as the physical performance in recovery. When you are highly focused, which you would be when you’re working out, or you’re focused on writing something or whatever, your brain is doing a lot of oxidative damage. It’s using a huge amount of oxygen. It uses 20% of the oxygen from your body but is only 2% of the weight of the body. It’s like there’s oxidative damage to repair there. Any high performance, executive function person is doing that damage. So when that kind of outpaces the body’s ability to keep up, then neurologically, it’s easy for things to kind of go off the rails and you see that with brain fog in healthy people, but your friend that’s using medication is probably just kind of out of scope and needs some extra help with it because the body is just not keeping up. It’s a matter of balancing the autonomic nervous system and bringing those protein functions back into balance, I should say back into harmony maybe.
All of that autonomic function is a protein function. We have huge use; I think since I first spoke with you or did the first podcast you just had this huge use for mental performance. Guys like Jim Kwik are the ones that we think of, but there’s also these athletes especially, or executives that are just high performing. I always talk about the endurance race car team because it’s just such a strain on your brain to focus like that, life important decisions for an hour.
00:30:43 Ben Pakulski
Are they using the NanoVi?
00:30:44 Rowena Gates
Oh yeah and crediting it. That’s a really exciting aspect of it. Also from a biohacker’s perspective, these two endurance race car drivers are in their 60s.
00:31:00 Ben Pakulski
Wow!
00:31:02 Rowena Gates
They’re three times the age of the average person on the racetrack and you only do that by doing a great job with all the biology and focus and so on.
00:31:14 Ben Pakulski
I did 10 minutes before we started, and I did a podcast previous, so my brain felt a little bit groggy, and I did 10 minutes now. It’s exceptional, the difference is definitely palpable.
00:31:22 Rowena Gates
Yeah, and people definitely notice that when they’re strained. That brain fog, or the clarity, or people have a little buzz. Again, I have to caution not everybody is going to notice that. Typically, it makes it easier when people are either high performance or very tuned in.
00:31:45 Ben Pakulski
To be honest, I didn’t notice when I first did it either. I was like, I’m not really sure because you don’t know what you’re looking for, right? Some people are expecting some type of something significant and until you start paying attention to the subtleties you don’t really notice. When you start paying attention to the subtleties you notice they can actually be significant. So many people are just so disconnected from the way they think and the way they feel, it’s a challenge.
00:32:08 Rowena Gates
Yeah, and really the recovery times are the best ones for those people even, because it’s so apparent in how fast they feel good again, or their performance and endurance is another one.
00:32:24 Ben Pakulski
So, tell me about that. I’ve definitively noticed the recovery times, but you’re seeing an endurance improvement as well?
00:32:31 Rowena Gates
Yes, so that people will either go longer or feel better when they stop because they have stronger endurance.
00:32:41 Ben Pakulski
So, are they doing it during – they couldn’t be doing it during, they’re doing it before or after?
00:32:47 Rowena Gates
Yes, ideally before and after. Our biggest endurance one is, how do I say this? It’s a deca-ultramarathon. Ten Ironman distance races. That’s the formula for oxidative stress.
00:33:05 Ben Pakulski
Oh yeah, huge!
00:33:07 Rowena Gates
Then whenever he was not on the bike, or swimming, or on the road, he would use the NanoVi.
00:33:15 Ben Pakulski
Have you guys thought about doing a mobile version yet? It’s certainly a desktop type thing where I do it, often times when I’m ready to do podcasts or writing at my desk. It would be awesome if I could carry one in my car or if I’m doing some type of aerobic work at the gym or something.
00:33:32 Rowena Gates
It’s difficult because what’s inside that box it is full, so there’s real stuff in there, and that part is hard to make super small. You have to have the energy and the airflow and all of that. But it could be made more durable and we have looked at that. Where even if it isn’t super lightweight and it’s not super small, if it’s just easy to pack around and use and less complicated with the water, for example.
00:34:11 Ben Pakulski
I have a 9-year-old son and I’m always concerned I’m going to come home one day to him having taken it apart. He’s one of those kids, right? If there’s something to be taken apart, he’s going to take it apart.
00:34:21 Rowena Gates
Those are great kids! Those are difficult kids that are great adults.
00:34:25 Ben Pakulski
Yeah. I would hope he doesn’t take that apart, but most things he’ll find a way to take it apart.
00:34:31 Rowena Gates
One thing that’s really good is we can fix anything. We build them in Seattle, here. So we can fix anything he takes apart, so go for it!
00:34:41 Ben Pakulski
He might be your next employee or your next innovator!
00:34:44 Rowena Gates
Yeah.
00:34:45 Ben Pakulski
Amazing. Rowena, I know you’re changing the model a little bit or at least advancing the model to where it’s going to be accessible to more people in gyms because it’s not a cheap unit. It’s not massively expensive, but you’re trying to appeal to facilities and optimization facilities, doctors’ offices and gyms to be able to provide this to their clients as an immediate recovery modality, and obviously a financial model as well. Tell me about that.
00:35:10 Rowena Gates
Well, that’s my area right now. I was interested in this a year ago and for some reason it just seemed like going after big gyms was not going to be of help. But it’s now what we’re kind of turning attention to. We did design the technology for that so that it has smart card technology so you could literally buy a card, go into your gym, self-service, put your card in and it deducts the minutes. We did design that way, and what I’d like to do now is get it in more publicly accessible places. It’s in doctors’ offices, but they don’t let people off the street or have a low-cost membership or something like a gym does. It’s interesting, even some of the less exclusive gyms are going with a recovery center. Maybe there’s a water massage bed or some light therapy or something.
So, my goal now is – and let me know if you know anybody who’s in a position to do this in any of these companies – but my goal is to start getting it in there where it has high volume use. You can have 30 people a day use one device so just make it accessible and then the cost does not have to be so high. Just to give everybody an idea of the cost, our devices are running between a little more than $5000 to a little less than $14,000, so it’s not accessible to everybody. In the long run it’s inexpensive because there’s a cost to use it. It’s that initially it can be difficult, and so that’s really been our goal, and it’s interesting. We’ve looked at this model in some less developed countries and we’re excited about it, but in less developed countries it’s almost like it’s sold as a service. You don’t even sell the device.
00:37:19 Ben Pakulski
Because of the direct effect on the lungs – I know this is going to be a controversial question – but have you looked at any of the effects on coronavirus? Obviously, corona’s attacking the lung cells, the endothelial cells. Have you looked at anything on that?
00:37:32 Rowena Gates
We don’t look at any of the specifics. We have a lot of reports back, but they’re just anecdotal. They’re not anything that is science per se. I would say that one of the biggest areas is in recovery, where there’s a certain number of people that are just damaged and they just don’t get better, trouble sleeping and most people are fine with coronavirus, but the people that have trouble recovering from it really struggle.
That’s where with anything like that we’ve had great results because it’s kind of getting that system back up and running, getting it back on track. It knows what to do. The body’s brilliant, amazing and so the key is just help it a little bit, boost it and then and things can start to resolve themselves. Even just being able to sleep well is going to be a huge win for recovery.
00:38:33 Ben Pakulski
Yeah, and our friend Brian Johnson, the guy from Philosopher’s Notes said he saw an improvement in his HRV, he immediately saw an improvement in his deep sleep and he was just like raving. He’s like, “Thank you so much for telling me about this” and he just was blown away. There are definitely people out there who are seeing benefits and that’s why I continue to be a supporter of your product. I think it would be an amazing adjunct for people who are older, or as we say, maybe they don’t have enough structured water, they don’t get enough sunshine, they don’t get enough movement, to kind of add in that additional structured water just to make sure the body’s got what it needs to transcribe good proteins.
00:39:07 Rowena Gates
Yeah. You can’t get enough, or you wouldn’t age. It’s going to be good for any of that. Brian is great, I love his work.
00:39:18 Ben Pakulski
Yeah, he’s amazing.
00:39:19 Rowena Gates
Yeah, it’s really cool, but that’s one thing is that HRV is a common measure, it’s generally very easy to see. You see the decrease in the sympathetic and then a little later you usually about 7 or 8 minutes into testing and then a little later, maybe 15 minutes into testing, you start to see the parasympathetic improvements.
00:39:41 Ben Pakulski
Almost immediately? During the session?
00:39:43 Rowena Gates
Oh yeah. We used to think it was sort of before and after, but then we started with better, more sophisticated measurements. You’d look at it real time and it was 7 or 8 minutes was typical. What’s interesting is that one person might show really strong for HRV, and another is measuring something else completely. It all depends because our bodies are so individual. If we’re really balanced, then we can expect to see a difference. It really depends on where everybody is individually of what they can measure. Sleep is a really big one, most people notice that and most people notice HRV. We’ve had pro athletes. When you were not in Florida two years ago, I was invited to spring training in Lakeland.
00:40:36 Ben Pakulski
Yeah.
00:40:37 Rowena Gates
The one time you weren’t there, I was so interested talking to Shane Greene. He’s now in Atlanta but he said the biggest fight for him was sleep. These professional ballplayers, it’s really hard for them to get to sleep after they’ve been at the stadium, all excited, high adrenaline.
00:41:02 Ben Pakulski
So talk to me about that because I always thought that would have been the ideal scenario. It’s like I’m going to throw cannula in my nose and go to sleep but I always felt such an energized benefit from it and I was like maybe it’s going to mess with my sleep? What have you seen?
00:41:15 Rowena Gates
Both. If you do it, it can energize people, they’re just so alert. I remember Dave Asprey told me that was what happened to Lana, that she couldn’t sleep and so we kind of warn about that. Usually, once people are accustomed to the device then that doesn’t happen, and it carries day to day so it doesn’t matter so much when you do it. And that, by the way, is another area for athletes we’d like to test because you say you don’t do it right before you workout, but it’s possible that you’re just doing it enough, that it’s still got that same benefit as a workout, so that’s actually something we don’t know specifically.
00:42:02 Ben Pakulski
I think still for me, some of the hardest things is finding time. When you’re sitting at your desk and that makes sense, but if I could just throw it in my nose and go to sleep for 30 minutes. To be able to run that while I sleep would just be an exceptional gift if it’s not going to interfere with my sleep, so I may do a little aim of one study for you.
00:42:21 Rowena Gates
Try it. You can set that thing, actually yours can be set on infinity mode. But you can set it, I think through that interface up to 999 minutes or so. That’ll do!
00:42:36 Ben Pakulski
I don’t think I will sleep that long!
00:42:38 Rowena Gates
You can turn lights off in the interface as well, or through a code, I’m not sure how old yours is. The best thing to do is put a magazine over the screen because the screen doesn’t actually turn off.
00:42:48 Ben Pakulski
Right. Can you tell me the difference between the $5000 and the $14,000 unit just for our audience’s sake?
00:42:55 Rowena Gates
Four times as powerful. Yours is 15 minutes?
00:42:58 Ben Pakulski
Yep.
00:42:59 Rowena Gates
The other one would take an hour for the same benefit.
00:43:07 Ben Pakulski
Okay, that’s great. So there’s only the two models?
00:43:11 Rowena Gates
There’s one in the middle that would be half an hour. About $8500, so it’s in the middle of the price too.
00:43:18 Ben Pakulski
Very cool, so I think from a financial perspective, if a facility or gym was looking to do it, probably the one that was the shortest and most effective would be most logical, I think. More people on it, yeah?
00:43:32 Rowena Gates
Yes. Absolutely, because people don’t want to be at the gym for an hour or a half an hour extra.
00:43:46 Ben Pakulski
Yeah.
00:43:47 Rowena Gates
Some places you can use it with stationary equipment. Ben Greenfield’s done that, I’ve seen him, but it’s generally at a gym. It’s going to be someplace that if you have a chair, you sit there, relax, check your phone, you know.
00:44:03 Ben Pakulski
I’m very curious about that lactate situation, I’m going to trial that. I’m going to throw that on my stationary bike and see if it improves my lactate clearing. Just subjectively, I have a pretty good idea of where my lactate threshold exists, so I will throw it on there and see how it improves.
00:44:21 Rowena Gates
Well, you have to do a washout though if you’re using it for that. Where you don’t use it for a while to see the difference. You can do that lactate and then try not using it for a few weeks but that’s a bad idea.
00:44:35 Ben Pakulski
And I’ve been using it pre-cardio for a while, so I’ve got a pretty good idea where it exists. Now I’ll add it in around cardio and see if it makes any difference, either during or before and see what it feels like.
00:44:47 Rowena Gates
The self-testing is very interesting, and we all want to see what it does for us because it’s different for each person. It is hard to get real data.
00:45:03 Ben Pakulski
I think people are just curious, right, and myself included. I’ve gone so far as to ride the bike wearing really small shorts and having red lights all around and seeing what that does and just playing with what we’re doing and stuff.
00:45:16 Rowena Gates
Have you noticed that?
00:45:19 Ben Pakulski
Have I noticed the difference with the red light?
00:45:21 Rowena Gates
Yeah.
00:45:22 Ben Pakulski
Maybe. I think I noticed my increased body temperature. I think I noticed increased energy, my inflammation seems to drop a little bit. I did that for about 7 days where I just had the big lights around in my house and just riding the bike and see what it felt like. My brain was going like how can I emulate riding sunrise on a mountain or something like that? Like getting all that infrared energy, all that infrared light, like let’s play with it. It seemed to make a difference, again, subjectively of course.
00:45:54 Rowena Gates
No, it’s interesting. I think that’s sort of the nature biohacking world. Kind of experimenting with ourselves a little bit.
00:46:03 Ben Pakulski
Yeah, and it’s so cool to have access to these things. I mean gosh, access to NanoVi, access to these lights and just see what it does. I always say I’m the world’s biggest baby. I just like to play like a child and see what it does, experiment all the time.
00:46:21 Rowena Gates
Yeah, no, it’s great! I like that because it is different for everybody and all of these things will be to some extent depending on what the body needs. When people get a huge rush of energy for red lights and other people don’t really notice it so much.
00:46:38 Ben Pakulski
Very cool. Is there anything else that we’ve missed that you think is super important for audience to know?
00:46:43 Rowena Gates
I can’t think of anything.
00:46:45 Ben Pakulski
We did an amazing job then!
00:46:46 Rowena Gates
I know what it is that we can totally, if people want demos or anything like that, we can absolutely do that over zoom. They’re more than welcome to check in.
00:46:57 Ben Pakulski
Yeah, and I’ll give my stamp of approval. It’s so easy, I mean you couldn’t have made it any easier and it’s relatively quick. It’s pleasant. It’s not in any way unpleasant and so useful. It’s sad Hans didn’t get to join us today, so please give a big hug for me. How can people reach out to you Rowena?
00:47:17 Rowena Gates
I’m at eng3corp.com. So yeah, feel free to check in. We have a lot of information for athletes which I know is huge amount of your people following it so we’re happy to share that information and get more data in people’s hands if they’re interested.
00:47:45 Ben Pakulski
Yeah, do you have any in pro hockey? Do you have people that are pro hockey players?
00:47:49 Rowena Gates
We do. We don’t have many though, which is we’re both Canadians – we should have more pro hockey. We got a Chicago Blackhawk, an LA Kings. Where we have some pro football not so much in pro basketball, a couple, but a lot in pro baseball.
00:48:15 Ben Pakulski
Very cool, well, let’s talk offline.
00:48:18 Rowena Gates
That’d be great.
00:48:21 Ben Pakulski
Thank you so much for being here, Rowena. I will definitely direct everyone to your site and I think we have a page up where they can go directly to get discount code, which is amazing, so thank you.
00:48:33 Rowena Gates
Okay, well it’s great to see you again. We finally did it!
00:48:37 Ben Pakulski
I finally made it on, thanks Rowena!
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